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Post by purrfin on Jul 17, 2023 11:04:28 GMT
How can one tell the difference between a "fake" and a "Cinderella" stamp?
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Post by khj on Jul 17, 2023 15:05:05 GMT
Technically, a fake is a type of cinderella. A fake is considered to be a deliberate attempt to deceive a collector. A cinderella that is made to look like a real stamp but is clearly marked/printed/designed in a way to make it obviously not genuine, would not be considered a fake.
"Gold replica" cinderellas are an example of a cinderella that would not be considered a fake.
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Post by ClassicPhilatelist on Jul 17, 2023 18:39:07 GMT
Please allow me weigh in here...
First of all, a Fake is neither a forgery, a counterfeit nor Cinderella. A fake is material that is made from authentic philatelic material, but altered to appear as something else. Common examples of this are trimming perfs off of a stamp to make it appear as imperf or a coil stamp, though it can also be images that have been scrapped off or painted in. Another way to fake is to intentionally alter the color of a stamp, either by exposing it to sunlight (turn green stamps blue for example), or exposing it to various chemical compounds (usually with the intent to trick someone into believing a stamp is "unique" and the only one printed in that color).
Forgery and Counterfeit are more about 'intent' but are essentially material that is built from an artists source (engraved usually, but modern "counterfeits" from high quality scans and then printed on "old papers", give the impression of the real stamp. These are meant to either fool the post office (counterfeit) or fill a space where a high value stamp might otherwise be unobtainable (often will have "facsimile" subtly printed on it somewhere.
Now... a Cinderella is a "stamp that's not a stamp". One sure giveaway is, if the stamp has no denomination printed on it, it's a good chance it's a Cinderella. The category is wide, and I don't think there is a "one-size fits all" answer to it. Technically, philatelic exposition stamps are a type of "Cinderella". One of the more frequently seen is the "Army Frank", in various colors, created during the Spanish American war. But there are many examples. Some might be referred to as "labels" like the case of the Rotary club stamps I've seen that have their pledge on it. I've even seen "Read the bible" stamps, also technically Cinderlla's.
The main thing as I mentioned: Usually non-denominated. (I say that to cover the bases, off the top of my head I can't think of a single Cinderella I've seen that has a value on it, but someone will probably point one out to me).
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Post by purrfin on Jul 18, 2023 11:48:43 GMT
Ok, Kim and Scott, you both make sense to me. I have a few sheets of cats: Nagaland with the rotary emblem, Turkmenitan, Dashkhovuz Velayat across the top, Bernera Islands - Scotland Imperf, Equatorial Guinea, Bulgaria and Angola. When I looked up the stamps some dealers listed as Fake and Cindy and Illegal stamps. These are printed like a regular stamp, not rubber-stamped. So I'm guessing they are all Cindy's.
Which all leads to yet another question ... What is an "Illegal" stamp, how do I tell if I have one? Or is that a phrase that incorporates fake and Cindy's?
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Post by khj on Jul 18, 2023 12:40:04 GMT
Local posts are considered by many to be cinderellas that have denominations. Union dues stamps, ration stamps...
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Post by khj on Jul 18, 2023 13:01:15 GMT
What is an "Illegal" stamp, how do I tell if I have one? Here's a pretty decent illustrated listing of illegal stamps: Illegal StampsOne thing about cinderellas, if you ask 10 different cinderella collectors what is included as "cinderella", you will likely get 8-10 different opinions and pretty "enthusiastic" arguments regarding why the other person's list is incorrect. Which is one of the main reasons I don't collect cinderellas (avoid arguments!). I'm a simpleton. I stick to the basic definition that a cinderella is something that looks like a stamp but not a postage stamp. So, if it is/was not valid for postage, it's a cinderella. What gets removed/included as a "cinderella", I leave for others to get into the nitty-gritty and differences of opinion.
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Post by ClassicPhilatelist on Jul 18, 2023 13:45:18 GMT
I would tend to agree with the "If it is not or was not ever valid for postage" (I would include "local postage" as valid, such as Lundy Islands), then it's a Cinderella. I would not include ration stamps in the Cinderella category, as they were exchanged for goods. Cinderella used as a "payment receipt" like a union dues stamp, I would also not classify as Cinderella, but I know some would. For me, a Cinderella has to have had no representation of a monetary value, whatever it's usage. But as Kim says, others would disagree with this.
Interestingly my Ancient 1943 Philatelic Terminology from Kalamazoo, Michigan (yeah, I didn't make that up), doesn't have a definition for Cinderella.
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Post by purrfin on Jul 19, 2023 10:26:13 GMT
Fascinating! Thank you both for my lesson today. Appreciate you!
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Post by catherinet on Aug 8, 2023 14:37:27 GMT
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Post by captphil211 on Dec 30, 2023 15:26:24 GMT
I would differ. To my mind, modern illegal stamps are a species of fraud that we haven't really defined yet. They are printed by predatory firms that take advantage of both the nations involved as well as collectors. And they have cranked out tons snd tons of the stuff. You can find them all over ebay and hipstamp.
This has happened before, we call them "album weeds" but that has an innocent, nostalgic connotation these modern stickers lack.
And I'll get up on my horse and say this: the dealers selling this stuff, that act as the middlemen between the printers and the uninformed collectors are guilty as homemade sin.
Cinderellas are a whole 'nuther thing. Cinderella items are/were there to educate, advertise, or entertain. They shouldn't be put in same basket as illegal stamps.
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Post by Ted Talks Stamps on Dec 30, 2023 21:31:49 GMT
I agree, Cap. The term Cinderellas lends these illegal stamps an air of legitimacy they do not deserve. Just yesterday I came across a HipStamp listing for a sheet of nudes from one of these places, where some of the pictures were more explicit than the ones you would find in Playboy. Back to purrfin's question, Cinderellas will generally, at least, serve some legitimate purpose, for example Christmas seals and Easter seals; the Discworld postage stamps (see my profile photo) sold as mementos of the book series, or any kind of art printed up as stamps. They are meant to evoke the imagery of postage stamps, but are clearly not claiming to be actual stamps valid for postage.
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Post by ClassicPhilatelist on Dec 31, 2023 1:57:13 GMT
Counterfeit, fake and forged stamps are not Cinderellas.
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